I know we've gone back and forth on this, but I believe that it's important to include the ambiguity about Ms. Cattrall's status as Kinga's mother, since Kim is a real person. Larry claims that Kim is Kinga's mother, but it's not clear how he would know that.
- And I will again repeat that there's no reason to think he's not telling the truth. *Any* character could theoretically be lying about *anything* they say. But we assume, absent any clear indication that they are lying, that they aren't. Darth Prefect (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Honestly, given the insane things that have occurred to the characters on the show, I don't see any reason why this, of all things, would be something we should feel ambiguous about.Darth Prefect (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- The difference is that Kim Cattrall is a real person. This isn't an article about "Kim Cattrall". Accepting Larry's word that Ms. Cattrall conceived a child out of wedlock, then surrendered that child to be raised by a mad scientist does her a disservice.
Furthermore, both Clayton and Larry are/were insane. Larry might be telling what he BELIEVES to be the truth, but unless he was present at Kinga's conception and/or birth, or personally conducted a DNA test, there is no reason to believe that he has accurate information about Kinga's parentage.
- I know that you mean well, but the idea that the storyline as portrayed on the show "does her a disservice" is your point of view, not an objective fact. We have always traditionally accepted what happens on the show as being factual *within the show*, no matter how we feel about it personally. Direct contradictions (Joel's favorite film, etc.) should be mentioned, of course. But unless and until the show (or, say, Joel Hodgson, whose view I would accept as authoritative) indicates there is a reason to disbelieve Dr. Erhardt, it's just a fan theory. I know a lot of fans at the time were both uncomfortable with the idea of using a real person and/or didn't buy the idea that Dr. F and Kim Cattrall would have had a relationship. But it's what the show says happened.
- I also know that Cattrall has gone on record regarding her choice to not have children, so if that's something you want to add to the real-world section to give it some context, that would be fine. If she were to express displeasure at the storyline, mentioning that would be fine. If there's a character analysis that theorizes that Dr. Erhardt is lying, *that* could be added to the real-world section, as well. (Or something like..."Many fans feel that the relationship with Dr. F is unlikely at best or not a responsible thing to portray at worst." and then give a link to some write-up or online discussion.)Darth Prefect (talk) 23:44, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Again, it's the difference between what "the show" says happened and what "Dr. Ehrhardt" says happened. I believe that it does not affect the credibility of the wiki to point out that Larry is - or at least MAY BE - an unreliable source, sine he is most likely repeating information that he got from Clayton, who is known to be insane and dishonest. That's my argument for there being a reason to disbelieve Dr. Erhardt.Dmitrioi (talk) 09:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- I'll draw this parallel- when I was writing the entry for the actress Lana Clarkson, I wrote that Phil Spector was convicted of her murder. I did not write that she was murdered by Phil Spector, because Spector claims that her death was an accident. So, it's the difference between saying that Kim is Kinga's mother and saying that Larry stated that Kim is Kinga's mother.Dmitrioi (talk) 09:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- I *absolutely* don't want to say anything about real-world people in a real-world context without confirmation. I will regularly update old entries to remove conjecture or opinion presented as fact. But fictional versions of real-world people are, essentially, fictional characters. Hugh Beaumont isn't really one of the four horsemen of the Apocolypse, but if I ever get around to updating his page, it will indicate that he *is*, within the fictional universe of MST3K. We should treat the fictional version of Kim Catrall the same way we would treat any other character from the show. It's one of the reasons I have reworked the pages for people like Catrall. The opening should cover a brief intro that is true in both the real world and MST3K. Then a section on the fictional character, then real-world/behind-the-scenes notes to provide context. I've noted your most recent change and may tweak it a bit more ("said" instead of "claimed"), but it works much better that what we had before.
- But, I'll tell you what. As I've been writing this, it occurs to me that it may not be a bad idea to do something to indicate this dichotomy on a more wiki-wide scale. Perhaps a hatnote indicating that there is a mix of fictional and real-world information ("This article concerns a real-world subject that has been portrayed in a fictional manner on MST3K and, therefore, reflects both real-world and fictional information.") and/or a new category for fictionalized people and other subjects.Darth Prefect (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2020 (UTC)